A string of issues related to the domestic political and economic situation in Greece against the background of the energy crisis, the so called ‘Watergate’ case, Greece’s complexity of relationship with Turkey and Athens’ point of view on the Western Balkans and the stance regarding Russia and the war in Ukraine were some of the highlights of an exclusive interview that Albanian Daily News had with Ms. Alexandra Voudouri, Greek journalist and analyst with Macropolis.gr and Athina 9,84FMas well asa research associate with ELIAMEP’s South-East Europe programme. According to her, despite the wiretapping case nobody in Greece is wishing for elections to be held ahead of schedule.  

The seasoned Greek analyst firmly believed that now that Albania has begun its European journey, the relations between Albania and Greece could only be better improved as both countries already share common values and principles as members of western institutions, like NATO, while respecting International Law. In the meantime she thought the time has certainly come for the two countries to finally proceed with the arbitration agreement, with which they will agree to bring their difference over maritime borders in the Ionian Sea to the International Court of Justice.

“Eventually progress on the issue will further improve our relations and will play down suspicion in Athens towards Tirana’s close relations with Ankara and the usual narratives that Albania plays to Turkish interests in the region,” said Ms. Alexandra Voudouri, Greek journalist and analyst with Macropolis.gr and Athina 9,84FMas well asa research associate with ELIAMEP’s South-East Europe programme in the following interview:    

Albanian Daily News: The so-called ‘Watergate’ scandal goes on in Greece. Ms. Voudouri, what will be its impact on the country’s political and social life, and has its vibrations been felt internationally given that Greece is a key country in the EU and NATO and for the Western Balkans?  

Greek analyst Alexandra Voudouri:  Greece’s wiretapping case has been, indeed and rightly so, attracting a growing interest from outside observers. The revelations earlier this summer over the phone tapping of socialist PASOK leader, Nikos Androulakis are something new and are a very serious matter; not only for the political developments that it triggered, but also for the profound pathogens of our political system being revealed. Surveillance practices also touch upon political sensibilities, particularly in advanced democracies, which explains the growing international interest in the case. There are also justified concerns about the impact these revelations may have for Greece’s regional role, or international image. 

For this particular reason, it is of absolute necessity that all political leaders and parties should address the issue in the best possible manner. Unfortunately, for now all the facts related to this case are not very clear. And I am not optimistic that the relevant Parliamentary inquiry will shed more light on the scandal. Both the government and the opposition, as well as the relevant institutions should however apportion responsibility where it is due, and come up with necessary solutions to restore public faith and Greece’s image and credibility abroad.

On the other hand, even though it is a case that affronts the core values of our democracy, I am afraid that it won’t have a serious impact on the average Greek citizen, who is more concerned about his own financial situation and how to deal with the rising cost of living and of the energy bills. This is clear in recent relevant polls.

- Are there any chances that there would be general elections ahead of those due in 2023?

- This is a million-dollar question… People in Greece, who are in contact with foreign officials, journalists and diplomats are being constantly asked whether these developments could trigger early elections. As I already mentioned, the scandal – to the surprise of the outside observers – has not affected the Greek public.  

And despite what it seems, nobody is wishing for elections to be held ahead of schedule. They are due to take place sometime before the end of the New Democracy government’s mandate, in the summer of 2023. The reasons are very simple. New elections will take place under proportional representation, the result of which will be that no party will get an overall majority. Then, there will be a second election, under a new law, which will give the leading party up to 50 bonus seats in Parliament.

Opinion polls previously suggested Kyriakos Mitsotakis would win a majority in the second elections. But following the wiretapping scandal, this no longer seems likely, since it will be hard for him to form a coalition with PASOK, whose leader’s phone was tapped. On the other hand, it will also be hard for the main opposition SYRIZA party to form a coalition, even if it accomplishes a deal with PASOK, as the two parties won’t have a majority. Additionally, and for the time being it seems unlikely for both parties to form a coalition with other political parties.

 - Journalists continue to be targets of attacks in their work and part of this is the deportation of the well- known Greek journalist Evangelos Areteos by Turkey. You joined in the widespread condemnation of Ankara’s decision. First, what made Mr. Areteos ‘dangerous’ for Turkey after covering it for more than two decades, and secondly, taking into consideration such an act how would you assess the overall relations between Greece and Turkey?

- The news of the deportation by the Turkish authorities of our excellent colleague, Evangelos Aretaios causes sadness and concern. But unfortunately, it does not surprise anyone, as it is added to a list involving other colleagues, as happened last July with the Turkish Cypriot journalist, Aysu Basri Akter. We should not also forget the number of Turkish journalists persecuted or even jailed because they dared to question or criticize the policies of their government. So, in the case of Aretaios’ deportation, Ankara just confirmed once again the way it understands freedom of expression and the work of journalists.

Aretaios is perhaps one of the few researchers, who has traveled and recorded the multiple changes of the Turkish society in recent years, helping the Greek public to better understand our neighboring country, something that many of his colleagues do not do, who write about and analyze so easily and, most of the time, wrongly today’s Turkey. His work is invaluable for the additional reason that it is a “bridge” between the two peoples, something that is currently missing. It seems Turkey is burning even one of the few remaining bridges.

Unfortunately, problems between Greece and Turkey are deepening and there is no sight of any solution soon. It is also a concern that Athens and Ankara currently do not have any kind of contact at any level. We have witnessed before how dangerous this situation could be.

I think people in both Greece and Turkey are certainly tired of living all these years in the atmosphere of hostility. Both countries lost a great opportunity to settle their differences, when conditions were adequate, and Turkey was a reformist country anchored to Western and European values. As soon as Turkey’s European prospects were derailed, there was serious backsliding and an increasingly confrontational foreign policy on behalf of Ankara. In fact, Turkey is a fine example of what frustration over failed hopes for an EU integration or a halted progress in the accession process could bring for any candidate EU member state. Turkey’s case should be quite alarming for the EU in the case of the Western Balkan hopefuls. For this exact reason, the EU should be finally honest on whether it actually means its commitment to the Western Balkans. No more empty promises; a clear EU vision, strategy and perhaps a renewed commitment are actually needed.    

- Let me touch, please, on the tense situation in the Western Balkans, where conflicts and efforts to resolve them go on simultaneously. Which is the role played by Greece taking as an example its approach in the relations with Kosovo and Serbia? 

- Greece is monitoring with concern the current and quite fragile situation in the Western Balkans. This is reflected in many statements made by Foreign Minister Nikos Dendias. His decision to appoint a special envoy for the Western Balkans is definitely a step in the right direction but will remain pointless if Greece continues to just express concern without taking a more active role in many cases, where it actually has the leverage to contribute with solutions. For instance, this did not happen in the case of Bulgaria blocking North Macedonia from beginning its EU accession talks.

Greece needs to redesign its Balkan policy in a more specific and clear manner, which will eventually allow Athens to have a more active interconnection and cooperation with all countries of the region, with no exceptions. There have been certain efforts, but a more comprehensive, integrated policy is also needed. 

- According to you, to what degree could more improved Albanian – Greek relations be beneficial for both countries and their people and on the other hand, could such a relationship help for the promotion of stability and cooperation in WB?

- Relations between Greece and Albania have certainly improved over the last couple of years, even though differences on various issues remain unresolved and mainly, on the maritime borders. This bilateral relation is already a fine example of how two neighbouring countries could forge close relations, despite their problems.

I firmly believe that now that Albania has begun its European journey, our relations could only be better improved as we already share common values and principles as members of western institutions, like NATO, while respecting International Law.

However, I think the time has certainly come for the two countries to finally proceed with the arbitration agreement, with which they will agree to bring their difference over maritime borders in the Ionian Sea to the International Court of Justice. Eventually progress on the issue will further improve our relations and will play down suspicion in Athens towards Tirana’s close relations with Ankara and the usual narratives that Albania plays to Turkish interests in the region.

But, as I said, the opening of Albania’s European path could guarantee that both our countries would further co-operate in many ways and its peoples would enjoy a common and prosperous future. You may see, for example, the case of bilateral relations between Greece and Bulgaria. The two countries have left their painful past behind and widely cooperate at many levels as both EU and NATO members.

- As a follow up, Mr. Voudouri, ‘Open Balkans’ initiative recorded an event in Belgrade, a wine festival and the annual conference of the leaders of the participant countries. Besides them, senior officials from Turkey and Hungary attended the conference. Reports say that Athens and Rome refused to go.  In the frame of all the above, what do you think of the future of this initiative and of the official Greek stance?

- To be honest, I have never seen any statement by any Greek official commenting on the initiative of the “Open Balkans”. I don’t even know whether Athens is skeptical about it or not.

But I think that Greece is always supportive of anything that it is aiming at transforming the region for the benefit of its peoples. However, it should be clear that Athens would stand against any kind of activity that is not inclusive or will aim at bypassing or substituting the Western Balkans’ European integration.

- Ms. Voudouri, US military operations in Greece have expanded greatly since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, and top officials from Russia and Turkey have called that a national security threat. Looking back when Greek people wanted American military bases out of their land, how do Greeks feel over such a return, as well as over the sore relations with Russia with which they share deep historical, economic, and cultural ties centered on the common Orthodox Christian religion?

- It is true that Greece has been one of the least anti-Russian countries in the Western camp, and Russia has been fighting fiercely for its allegiance through various means including disinformation campaigns, media influence and our common religious faith. Unfortunately, Greece has offered a fertile ground for Russia’s influence and wrong perceptions of the true dimensions of our so-called traditional good ties.

And this explains some poll findings that showed that 53 percent of Greeks supported sanctions against Russia, compared with a European Union average of 80 percent and the opposition of Greeks against financing weapons purchases of Ukraine.

It should be also noted that ahead of the war, Athens provided support for Russia’s inclusion in talks about the European Security Architecture. However, the war in Ukraine is impacting Greece’s strategic fundamentals. It seems to be breaking with its traditional position consisting of aligning with NATO and EU policies, but keeping working relations with Russia, where possible.

But Athens is in fact using the current situation to enhance its position in the regional security architecture. This move is made with one eye on Ankara. The war in Ukraine also seems to justify three main choices of the current government in the field of foreign policy and security. These are namely the increase of defence spending, the signing of the strategic cooperation agreement with France as well as the renewal of the Mutual Defence Cooperation with the US.  The latter explains to a great extent what you observe “as great expansion of US military operations in Greece”.

Athens feels and rightly so, that it cannot remain silent when International Law is violated and as a NATO and EU member needs to be aligned with common decisions to get their support, when and if needed. The Greek stance is therefore a diplomatic investment that should not be overlooked. After all, it is not uncommon in the past for Greece to seek the support of its partners, but on the basis of a narrow framework that never exceeded the national interest.

In the case of Russia’s war in Ukraine, Greece also had a moral obligation towards its large ethnic minority in Mariupol and Odessa and its request to The Hague to investigate possible war crimes there, is beyond any doubt a rightful decision.

All these decisions and actions by the Greek government are very well known to the Greek people, who I believe, currently do understand ‘the greater geopolitical picture’; that is the dangers and the uncertainties caused by the illegal war of Putin against a sovereign state. The Greek people will also hopefully and eventually realize the true dimensions of our so -called traditionally “good relations” with Russia, which “played” successfully with historic themes, but in reality, has never been on Greece’s side throughout its modern history and especially, during conflicts with third countries.

- Summer is over and winter is at the doorstep. Energy crisis has put Europe and the entire world in unparalleled disorder. Which are, according to you, the perspectives for overcoming this critical sensitive crisis being coupled with the persisting pandemic? How are Greek people responding to such a state of affairs?

- We should not forget that the current energy crisis is caused by Russian president Vladimir Putin’s blackmail against the EU and his decision to limit gas supplies ahead of the heating season. The drastic reduction in gas deliveries is just “punishment” for the EU’s sanctions against Moscow. Of course, the EU and particularly Germany were mistakenly too reliant on Russian energy, and this is the price they pay for this failing policy. The current situation offers a very good chance for the EU to end its dependence on Russian energy and accelerating the switch to renewable energy will be key to this strategy.

But this will take quite some time and certainly needs resilience on behalf of all the EU member states and mostly, their people. Actions that aim at breaking the united stance on behalf of the EU, like Hungary’s signing of a new deal with Russia for additional gas supplies should be condemned and prevented.

Moscow’s main aim is to provoke political instability in European countries; this is quite evident (in Finland, in Italy). Of course, the EU has delayed significantly in taking coordinated decisions to tackle the crisis; but this should not serve as an excuse to succumb to Russia’s pressures. And it is of vital importance to keep reminding ordinary people the reasons why there are sanctions against Russia’s illegal war against Ukraine.

The paradox in Greece’s case, however, is that the country long before the war in Ukraine had the highest electricity rates in Europe for many reasons, but mostly related to the unwillingness so far to make the most of what we have, which is, clean, inexhaustible, and cheap energy from renewable sources.

The proposal of the southern European countries to decouple the cost of electricity from the price of natural gas to secure more affordable prices is currently a step in the right direction since numerous households are struggling to pay enormous bills. And the subsidies given would hardly help, as they seem like succor for the ill.  This would certainly have an impact on the next general elections here, alongside the unbearable cost of living.